Freedom To Worship Honest Porta-John Knight

Well, I started out talking to just a couple of folks about theology, and a
bunch of Jackals jumped on me, and I bit back.

So once again we find you not following the teachings of
Jesus. What a shock.

Well, let's review:

First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave them the
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people made a
mess of things.

Then humanity sort of started all over again. Noah and his family became
the only survivors of a worldwide flood. Noah's descendants had the same
choice, to build a relationship with God or not. Within a few generations,
things were a mess again.

God has remained intent on building a relationship with the people of the
world, though. He established a contractlike, covenant agreement with a man
named Abraham. Abraham promised to cherish and obey God and to teach his
family to do the same. God promised that out of those descendents would
come a Messiah, a man who would give His own life on the behalf of humanity.
That man was God in the form of a human. We Christians refer to him as
Jesus Christ.

Jesus lived and died and lived again. When He left our world, He left
behind the message that having a relationship with God requires faith in
Grace, rather than perfect living under the old Jewish laws. He left behind
a group of people who were supposed to keep this message going, of a New
Covenant whereby all people of the world can be saved by Grace through
faith.

Read and learn.

H.J.

Bob LeChevalier

2006-02-18 06:01:24 UTC

Post by Honest John
First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave them the
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people made a
mess of things.

If He created them in an "ideal world" then why couldn't He create
them well enough to NOT make a mess of things? And if He couldn't,
why didn't He have a plan already in place to solve the problem,
rather than letting things drag on until the Roman Empire?

Post by Honest John
Then humanity sort of started all over again. Noah and his family became
the only survivors of a worldwide flood. Noah's descendants had the same
choice, to build a relationship with God or not. Within a few generations,
things were a mess again.

God should have created better people the first time around?

lojbab

Honest John

2006-02-18 06:39:49 UTC

Post by Honest John
First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave them the
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people made a
mess of things.

God should have created better people the first time around?

If God wanted robot zombies he would have created them, but he gave his
people free will and if they use that free will to love God back as he loves
them, then that is what he wants. God is Love

HJ

Bob LeChevalier

2006-02-18 16:12:43 UTC

Post by Honest John
First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave them

the

Post by Honest John
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people made

Post by Honest John
mess of things.

generations,

Post by Honest John
things were a mess again.

God should have created better people the first time around?

If God wanted robot zombies

Who said anything about robot zombies? Was God incapable of creating
people who could exercise free will, but whose will would *generally*
be to do the right thing rather than the wrong thing? Was He
incapable of devising a Plan for salvation that wouldn't take
thousands of years and leaving the vast majority unsaved?

That's the problem with an omnipotent God - you have to explain away
His failures to create perfection.

lojbab

Honest John

2006-02-18 18:30:44 UTC

Post by Honest John
First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave them

the

Post by Honest John
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people made

Post by Honest John
mess of things.

generations,

Post by Honest John
things were a mess again.

God should have created better people the first time around?

If God wanted robot zombies

Who said anything about robot zombies? Was God incapable of creating
people who could exercise free will, but whose will would *generally*
be to do the right thing rather than the wrong thing? Was He
incapable of devising a Plan for salvation that wouldn't take
thousands of years and leaving the vast majority unsaved?
That's the problem with an omnipotent God - you have to explain away
His failures to create perfection.

I appreciate your position. To me it's one of those mysteries that will be
answered in the afterlife.

HJ

Bob LeChevalier

2006-02-19 00:20:31 UTC

Post by Bob LeChevalier
Who said anything about robot zombies? Was God incapable of creating
people who could exercise free will, but whose will would *generally*
be to do the right thing rather than the wrong thing? Was He
incapable of devising a Plan for salvation that wouldn't take
thousands of years and leaving the vast majority unsaved?
That's the problem with an omnipotent God - you have to explain away
His failures to create perfection.

I appreciate your position. To me it's one of those mysteries that will be
answered in the afterlife.

Not my position. I just choose not to worry about theology, and just
have faith in God. But I don't try to convert those who DO hold that
position, like you are trying to do, because THEY aren't willing to
wait for an afterlife in order to get an answer. If you cannot answer
it, then you simply look the fool. As you have.

When you don't know the answers to the really tough theological
questions, it is best not to get involved in theological discussions.

lojbab

thomas p

2006-02-19 17:34:36 UTC

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:30:44 -0600, "Honest John"
snip

I appreciate your position. To me it's one of those mysteries that will be
answered in the afterlife.

Your answer would be a good one if there was a good reason to believe
your god existed in the first place. We would then just have to
accept any part that we didn't understand. Since you have provided no
reason, all we have to look at is your description of an omnipotent
god who makes mistakes; i.e. it does not make any sense (a position
you just expressed understanding for), and, without evidence, there is
no reason to consider it further. Do you have any evidence?

Thomas P.

"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"

(Kierkegaard)

Bob Officer

2006-02-18 20:52:19 UTC

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:12:43 -0500, in alt.astrology, Bob LeChevalier

Post by Honest John
First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave them

the

Post by Honest John
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people made

Post by Honest John
mess of things.

generations,

Post by Honest John
things were a mess again.

God should have created better people the first time around?

If God wanted robot zombies

Who said anything about robot zombies? Was God incapable of creating
people who could exercise free will, but whose will would *generally*
be to do the right thing rather than the wrong thing? Was He
incapable of devising a Plan for salvation that wouldn't take
thousands of years and leaving the vast majority unsaved?
That's the problem with an omnipotent God - you have to explain away
His failures to create perfection.

Maybe that's why he was pissed at Adam and Eve?
After they ate of the forbidden fruit, they realized god was
imperfect.

Was he made imperfect by the creation of imperfection? Maybe he was
flawed all the time. I mean maybe he created Satan so he would rebel,
such a flaw shouldn't have happen unless god was imperfect. Then
there is the issue of God allowing rebellion of his angels in the 1st
place? Why would a prefect god place temptation in front of man,
knowing full well his creation was flawed and imperfect.

Maybe God himself did all this deliberately, because he was evil.
Like a little boy, he enjoys the human emotion of fear, hate, lust,
and the enjoyment of hurting people? Maybe we are just advance flies
to his mentality, and like a warped little boy, he enjoys pulling
wings off of us.

--
Ak'toh'di

e***@no.spam

2006-02-18 21:17:05 UTC

Post by Honest John
If God wanted robot zombies he would have created them

Looks like he created at least one.

Cary Kittrell

2006-02-20 16:25:52 UTC

Post by Honest John
First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave them

the

Post by Honest John
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people made

Post by Honest John
mess of things.

generations,

Post by Honest John
things were a mess again.

God should have created better people the first time around?

If God wanted robot zombies he would have created them, but he gave his
people free will and if they use that free will to love God back as he loves
them, then that is what he wants. God is Love

If there truly had been free will, then you would have seen people
exercising free will -- some would choose to sin, and some would
choose not to sin. But, according to you, that's not the case.
You tell us that every single one of the perhaps 10,000,000,000
billion people born to date are mired in sin. Ten billion to zero
is not a sign of free will, it's a sign of inevitability.
If the gas tanks on a dozen Pintos explode, it might be
poor driving. If every single Pinto ever made exploded, then
it's faulty design.

-- cary

Honest John

2006-02-20 18:26:33 UTC

Post by Honest John
First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave them

the

Post by Honest John
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people made

Post by Honest John
mess of things.

generations,

Post by Honest John
things were a mess again.

God should have created better people the first time around?

If God wanted robot zombies he would have created them, but he gave his
people free will and if they use that free will to love God back as he loves
them, then that is what he wants. God is Love

You don't want to know the truth or you would not be grasping at straws like
you are doing. There may be no hope for you.

HJ

Art Deco

2006-02-20 22:22:15 UTC

Post by Honest John
First, God created and ideal world and put people in it. He gave

them

Post by Honest John
the

Post by Honest John
choice to build a relationship with Him or not. Those first people

made

Post by Honest John
a

Post by Honest John
mess of things.

Post by Honest John
Then humanity sort of started all over again. Noah and his family

became

Post by Honest John
the only survivors of a worldwide flood. Noah's descendants had the

same

Post by Honest John
choice, to build a relationship with God or not. Within a few

generations,

Post by Honest John
things were a mess again.

God should have created better people the first time around?

If God wanted robot zombies he would have created them, but he gave his
people free will and if they use that free will to love God back as he

loves

Post by Honest John
them, then that is what he wants. God is Love

You don't want to know the truth or you would not be grasping at straws like
you are doing. There may be no hope for you.
HJ

Hypocrite.
--
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
Official Overseer of Kooks and Saucerheads in alt.astronomy
Official Agent of Deception
Co-Winner, alt.(f)lame Worst Flame War, December 2005

"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
-- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief

"Have patience. First I shall deal with the State of Oregon
and County of Josephine, Then the AFAB, government/media
disinformation Agents with whom you conspire to libel me and my
family. Your time will come."
-- Raymond Ronald Karczewski©, usenet "christ"

"Classic unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, and rather ironic, coming from
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell me,
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little restraint?'"
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

Honest John

2006-02-20 22:22:30 UTC

Post by Art Deco
Hypocrite.

Now...Now... it's not nice to namecall, you Dickhead!

HJ

Post by Art Deco
Official Head giver of Kooks and Saucerheads in alt.astronomy
Official Agent of Defecation
Co-Winner, alt.(f)laming faggot War, December 2005
"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
-- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief
"Have patience. First I shall deal with the State of Oregon
and County of Josephine, Then the AFAB, government/media
disinformation Agents with whom you conspire to libel me and my
family. Your time will come."
-- Raymond Ronald Karczewski©, usenet "christ"
"Classic unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, and rather ironic, coming from
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell me,
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little restraint?'"
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

Art Deco

2006-02-21 00:03:55 UTC

Post by Art Deco
Hypocrite.

Now...Now... it's not nice to namecall, you Dickhead!
HJ

Try this on for size, hypocrite:

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing,
but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will
recognize them. Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad
tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree
cannot bear good fruit." Mat. 7:15-18, NIV

Post by Art Deco
Official Head giver of Kooks and Saucerheads in alt.astronomy
Official Agent of Defecation
Co-Winner, alt.(f)laming faggot War, December 2005

Nice post edit, hypocrite.

Post by Art Deco
"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
-- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief
"Have patience. First I shall deal with the State of Oregon
and County of Josephine, Then the AFAB, government/media
disinformation Agents with whom you conspire to libel me and my
family. Your time will come."
-- Raymond Ronald Karczewski©, usenet "christ"
"Classic unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, and rather ironic, coming from
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell

me,

Post by Art Deco
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little restraint?'"
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

--
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
Official Overseer of Kooks and Saucerheads in alt.astronomy
Official Agent of Deception
Co-Winner, alt.(f)lame Worst Flame War, December 2005

"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
-- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief

"Have patience. First I shall deal with the State of Oregon
and County of Josephine, Then the AFAB, government/media
disinformation Agents with whom you conspire to libel me and my
family. Your time will come."
-- Raymond Ronald Karczewski©, usenet "christ"

"Classic unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, and rather ironic, coming from
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell me,
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little restraint?'"
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

e***@no.spam

2006-02-18 06:07:43 UTC

Well, I started out talking to just a couple of folks about theology, and

bunch of Jackals jumped on me, and I bit back.

So once again we find you not following the teachings of
Jesus. What a shock.

Why did you snip the Bible citation, sinner?

Honest John

2006-02-18 06:41:31 UTC

Well, I started out talking to just a couple of folks about theology, and

bunch of Jackals jumped on me, and I bit back.

So once again we find you not following the teachings of
Jesus. What a shock.

Quiet ko0k.

HJ

Art Deco

2006-02-18 17:19:05 UTC

Well, I started out talking to just a couple of folks about theology,

and

bunch of Jackals jumped on me, and I bit back.

So once again we find you not following the teachings of
Jesus. What a shock.

Quiet ko0k.
HJ

A snip-n-run followed by an ad hominem is not helping you argue your
case.
--
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
Official Overseer of Kooks and Saucerheads in alt.astronomy
Official Agent of Deception
Co-Winner, alt.(f)lame Worst Flame War, December 2005

"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
-- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief

"Have patience. First I shall deal with the State of Oregon
and County of Josephine, Then the AFAB, government/media
disinformation Agents with whom you conspire to libel me and my
family. Your time will come."
-- Raymond Ronald Karczewski©, usenet "christ"

"Classic unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, and rather ironic, coming from
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell me,
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little restraint?'"
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

Honest John

2006-02-18 18:32:23 UTC

Well, I started out talking to just a couple of folks about theology,

and

bunch of Jackals jumped on me, and I bit back.

So once again we find you not following the teachings of
Jesus. What a shock.

Quiet ko0k.
HJ

A snip-n-run followed by an ad hominem is not helping you argue your
case.

What case? I'm busy shooting rats now

HJ

Post by Art Deco
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
Official Overseer of Kooks and Saucerheads in alt.astronomy
Official Agent of Deception
Co-Winner, alt.(f)lame Worst Flame War, December 2005
"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
-- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief
"Have patience. First I shall deal with the State of Oregon
and County of Josephine, Then the AFAB, government/media
disinformation Agents with whom you conspire to libel me and my
family. Your time will come."
-- Raymond Ronald Karczewski©, usenet "christ"
"Classic unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, and rather ironic, coming from
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell me,
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little restraint?'"
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

Art Deco

2006-02-18 18:52:14 UTC

Well, I started out talking to just a couple of folks about

theology,

Post by Honest John
and

bunch of Jackals jumped on me, and I bit back.

So once again we find you not following the teachings of
Jesus. What a shock.

Quiet ko0k.
HJ

A snip-n-run followed by an ad hominem is not helping you argue your
case.

What case? I'm busy shooting rats now
HJ

Clue shields are holding firm.

from

Post by Art Deco
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell

me,

Post by Art Deco
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little restraint?'"
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

Honest John

2006-02-18 18:59:41 UTC

Well, I started out talking to just a couple of folks about

theology,

Post by Honest John
and

bunch of Jackals jumped on me, and I bit back.

So once again we find you not following the teachings of
Jesus. What a shock.

Quiet ko0k.
HJ

A snip-n-run followed by an ad hominem is not helping you argue your
case.

What case? I'm busy shooting rats now
HJ

Clue shields are holding firm.

Don't get all upset, I'm pulling the plug on "funnin with the dolts".

Happy now?

HJ

from

Post by Art Deco
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell

me,

Post by Art Deco
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little

restraint?'"

Post by Art Deco
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

--
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
Official Overseer of Kooks and Saucerheads in alt.astronomy
Official Agent of Deception
Co-Winner, alt.(f)lame Worst Flame War, December 2005
"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
-- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief
"Have patience. First I shall deal with the State of Oregon
and County of Josephine, Then the AFAB, government/media
disinformation Agents with whom you conspire to libel me and my
family. Your time will come."
-- Raymond Ronald Karczewski©, usenet "christ"
"Classic unsubstantiated and erroneous claim, and rather ironic, coming from
someone who obviously has no understanding of what a signature is. Tell me,
Haslam, do you sign your checks as 'Can't you show a little restraint?'"
-- David Tholen, Clueless Newbie of the Month, February 2003

e***@no.spam

2006-02-18 21:20:37 UTC

Post by Honest John
Don't get all upset, I'm pulling the plug on "funnin with the dolts".

You are lying again. Please go read what the bible says about
liars.

Kali

2006-02-18 23:07:58 UTC

Post by Honest John
Don't get all upset, I'm pulling the plug on "funnin with the dolts".

You are lying again. Please go read what the bible says about
liars.

Along with goat molesters, children who talk back to their
parents, and the women that adulterers have fornicated with,
they should be put to death.

Stephen King ain't got nothin' on Leviticus.

Kali

--
A bore is simply a nonentity who resents his humble lot in life,
and seeks satisfaction for his wounded ego by forcing himself on
his betters. - H. L. Mencken

mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

2006-02-18 23:32:04 UTC

Post by Kali

Post by Honest John
Don't get all upset, I'm pulling the plug on "funnin with the dolts".

You are lying again. Please go read what the bible says about
liars.

Along with goat molesters, children who talk back to their
parents, and the women that adulterers have fornicated with,
they should be put to death.
Stephen King ain't got nothin' on Leviticus.

since it doesnt apply to us non-jews
i wont worry too much about it

arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him

Kali

2006-02-18 23:49:40 UTC

Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

In article <mair_fheal-***@sn-ip.vsrv-
sjc.supernews.net>, posted Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:32:04 -0800,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

Post by Kali

Post by Honest John
Don't get all upset, I'm pulling the plug on "funnin with the dolts".

You are lying again. Please go read what the bible says about
liars.

Along with goat molesters, children who talk back to their
parents, and the women that adulterers have fornicated with,
they should be put to death.
Stephen King ain't got nothin' on Leviticus.

since it doesnt apply to us non-jews
i wont worry too much about it

No smiting for you, then.

Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him

Kali

--
A bore is simply a nonentity who resents his humble lot in life,
and seeks satisfaction for his wounded ego by forcing himself on
his betters. - H. L. Mencken

mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

2006-02-19 01:39:50 UTC

Post by mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

Post by Kali
sjc.supernews.net>, posted Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:32:04 -0800,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

Post by Kali

Post by Honest John
Don't get all upset, I'm pulling the plug on "funnin with the dolts".

You are lying again. Please go read what the bible says about
liars.

Along with goat molesters, children who talk back to their
parents, and the women that adulterers have fornicated with,
they should be put to death.
Stephen King ain't got nothin' on Leviticus.

since it doesnt apply to us non-jews
i wont worry too much about it

No smiting for you, then.

i should get a yellow smiting face decal on my computer

arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him

e***@no.spam

2006-02-18 21:19:54 UTC

Post by Honest John
What case? I'm busy shooting rats now

No, you're busy showing yourself too foolish to realize you've
lost. We've reduced you to duplicate replies because you have no
honest answers.

thomas p

2006-02-18 09:04:51 UTC

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:56:56 -0600, "Honest John"

Well, I started out talking to just a couple of folks about theology, and